Come Waste Your Time With Me

In the 4th Meeting since the Homeowner’s Annual Meeting, we thought we might finally get the big reveal on what, exactly, President Jones and the Board intends to do as they spend $10,000 on Document Revision. The last meeting, we got a tease, as they revealed that only 5 of the 11-12 people who applied (we never got an explanation about why they don’t know the exact number) would be added to the Committee with their Board handlers, who are clearly still running the show.

In this latest episode, we were treated to an hour and twenty-four minutes of epic masterclasses in how to make decisions as slowly as absolutely possible. I’m providing a recording, but fair warning, it may take 5 to 10 times your normal caffeine intake to stay conscious to the end. I lost count on how many times there were pregnant pauses that became truly uncomfortable dead air.

But, the actual big reveal was when the President of the Association, Ms. Jones, told the Committee that the process of this Document Committee could result in the Committee determining that no changes should be made at all. Yeah, we’d spend $10k to find out that we probably should not have spent $10K. It is hard to believe that was actually said out loud, even if it was true. It has the appearance that Pres. Jones is aware that the math doesn’t start out in the Board’s favor. Which is why they are not just micro-managing the Committee, but literally dominating it.

This meeting was 100% run by Pres. Jones, who was voted to be the Chair of this Committee, but with a chance since the last meeting. She is now Co-Chair with Treasurer and Director Ms. Hutchinson. This was not previously announced, but no homeowner could speak up, as we were told in no uncertain terms we could not speak, under any conditions until the END of the meeting.

Well, it took until 36 minutes into the meeting to go round and round getting everyone’s opinion about what they felt that the committee should do. There was no one saying that the procedure should follow any part of Robert’s Rules, and no reference to the Bylaws or Policies, both of which still determine our path right now – even if we plan to replace the documents, they still govern us right now.

So the math challenge for the Board is due to the fact that changing the documents requires enough votes for 67% of 87 homes = 58 votes. This may be a tall order, as the votes supporting the budget were no where near this number, with the chief concern of many that this expenditure is unwise. And, a vociferous opposition led by none other than Mr. Flanary.

In an odd turn of events, if you are a regular reader of this website, you may recognize Mr. Flanary as someone with whom I’ve previously disagreed. Two meetings in a row, it turns out that we are actually aligned – and have agreed to temporarily put aside our differences.

But, these are just some of the highlights. The real theme of this meeting was irony.

So, what was the agenda for this meeting? How did that develop? Great question.

That’s part of the problem. While the agenda certainly wins some prize for minimalist artistry, for the purpose of informing both the Committee Members and the homeowners, it was the barest minimum to give us a clue on what to expect. Maybe this time, we’d finally find out what the PURPOSE of this monumental Document Revision truly is. The Board hasn’t answered a direct question on that since literally 1999 – other than the canned responses of “to remove the word declarant” and because there are “all of these conflicts”. Which conflicts, specifically? They won’t say. OK, the most important conflict, since there are so many to choose from and justify spending $10,000? OK, not the most important, the one that is most urgent for some reason?

Nope. No answer to these or really any questions for over 2 years. The relationship with VF Law began in July of 2021. Nearly 8 months later, we still can’t formulate a purpose statement. Bad optics and PR, at the very very least.

So, here’s what we got by email ahead of the meeting, just 48 hours in advance – with no other signals or indicators – we get this agenda:

Note that the agenda doesn’t invite comments. Out of 9 numbred items, 3 of them is a single word. Item #2, which is to establish a procedure for conducting meetings appears to be responsive took 36 minutes. A meeting starting at the inconvenient time of 6:15pm on a Tuesday had still not made it to Agenda Item 3 by 7:00pm.

What took so long? The Board and Committee members spent the bulk of the time doing several round-robins on what they felt should be done. What they have done in other settings, including corporate board/committee settings. Several times, there were hints that the Committee preferred to meet in person without homeowners, but Pres. Jones had to remind them that all Committee Meetings must be open to homeowners.

But, they don’t have a CCIOA Right to speak – at all. Per Pres. Johnson. According to her interpretation of CCIOA, The CCIOA Open Meetings Statute doesn’t apply to committees. So, she said, in spite of the Board not owing the homeowners this huge favor, she was going to grant homeowners the chance to participate. The half-hour debate was mostly over whether they needed to comply with CCIOA’s requirement that a homeowner be required to speak prior to every agenda item that resulted in a motion for a vote (or a vote) – and whether homeowners really deserved to speak for more than 2 minutes.

I’ve heard of this myth before. And, so has Altitude Law, which actually enumerates common HOA myths. Of course, if POHOA had not actually hired Altitude Law, or had Pres. Jones not attended a seminar on HOAs offered by an attorney offered by Altitude Law in November of 2018, I’d say she’d have every right under the Business Judgement Rule to claim ignorance of the law to avoid the appearance of a “wanton and willful” compliance issue with CCIOA.

Here’s what Altitide Law says at this page: Open Meetings Statutes Myths and Realities

Myth No. 5:  The Open Meetings statute only applies to meetings of the board of directors.

Fact:  The statute also applies to committee meetings (e.g., Architectural Control Committee, Nominating Committee, Budget Committee, etc.), as well as board meetings.

So, right out of the gate, we have the person Co-Chairing the meeting misinforming 9 other people (Board Members and Committee Members), and not a single one of them knew this was incorrect and made a Point of Order or any attempt to correct the record. Of course, I knew this, but I’m silenced at the meeting. And, when I do say something AT a meeting, they just argue.

So, then I have to follow up after the meeting with a comment in writing, which is really the right thing to do. In fact, when the Board tried to run several motions on the floor simultaneously to avoid having homeowners comment on each one at the 1/11/22 Board Meeting (Document Revision Tease Meeting #3, if you are keeping count and include the Homeowners Meeting). I cited the specific Colorado Statute (CCIOA 38-33.3-303(2)(b)), and I even included the course materials from TWO classes offered by the State of Nevada, which explain WHY homeowner input is super important for things like trying to garner 67% of the votes after a $10k expenditure.

But, in case they didn’t want to take my word for it, again I sent them a quote and link from the Altitude Law website:
Owner’s Rights at a Board Meeting – Do They Even Exist?

“Owner Participation
In 2006, SB-100 changed the world as many boards knew it by revising a portion of CCIOA and specifically requiring boards to allow owners to speak during board meetings.  However, such right to speak is not unlimited and, in fact, is very pointed as to when owners must be allowed to exercise such rights.Pursuant to Section 308(2.5)(b) of CCIOA, owners must be afforded an opportunity to speak for or against a particular issue prior to the board conducting a vote on such issue.  What this practically means is that at a point determined by the board, but before taking a formal vote on a particular issue, the board must allow a reasonable number of owners to speak on both sides of the issue.  After allowing such opportunity, the board may then proceed with its vote.”

But, no. They didn’t respond to my email, which offered the reasonable resolution that they recognize that they have to allow comment before each item that gets a vote going forward. You know, complying with the law – the statute that is clear.

So, the next step when a homeowner attempts informal notice of non-compliance with CCIOA is to request a hearing. But, who are we kidding? POHOA has never had one, and probably never will. Particularly when they know that they made a mistake. The purpose from that point forward is to retaliate by silencing and isolating the person who is treated as the enemy, if for no other reason, then perhaps “tattle-taling”.

But, that is the next step. A formal complaint was filed with DORA using their website. Regardless of whether POHOA corrected the practice going forward, they did in fact, KNOWINGLY fail to comply with this statute when it has come up multiple times since 2018. It’s kinda a big deal from a fiduciary duty and legal liability point of view.

So, they knew that they crossed the line in January, and instead of reading the email, class materials from Nevada (with my certificate for having taken the class), or any of the supporting citations or documents, they decided to draw a new line in the sand. Right out of the gate, they sought, once again, to ignore what Altitude Law says with absolute certainty is a requirement – that there’s no difference between procedures for Board Meetings and Committee Meetings. They are treated the same by CCIOA.

So, why did we spend over a half-hour getting everyone’s OPINION on what made-up rules there are for homeowner participation?

The only thing I can imagine is to create the false opinion that this is a DECISION by the Board (or the Committee, hard to tell since it’s basically run by the Board with the entire Board present), and because they goaded all the Committee Members into a meeting, without a clearcut agenda, making it appear that it perfectly logical and reasonable to MAKE UP the procedure, when, in fact, they just needed to follow the same rules it’s taken 3 years to get the Board to barely comply with and clear do not wish to comply with.

This is terrible to do to 5 new volunteers. They should not have been put in that position. Instead of Pres. Jones basically making a declaration, and then Treas. Hutchinson and then the rest of the Board chiming in like parrots to bless this mess, they should have just handed out the correct statute provided to them, then the articles and quotes from Altitude Law, and then, if this was a matter of some sort of vote to affirm this is the truth, LET THEM MAKE AN ACTUAL INFORMED DECISION.

Instead, Pres. Jones led them into an embarrassing first step in the very first meeting of the committee. Horrible optics that undermine trust and credibility.

So, what is so incredibly offensive about all of this, and as stated earlier, IRONIC, is that they spent all this time trying to defend an obvious and documented MYTH, and decorate it as some legitimate Board/Committee decision, but they did so repeatedly putting down homeowners as people who just wanted to make meetings go long and late, had no self-control or self-awareness, and would just ramble on for HOURS if you let’em. You know, those terrible inconsiderate homeowners.

And, this is where the irony meets an inconvenient reality. We all know who this Board does not want to speak. Me and Walker. I mean, it was barely 2 months ago when the Board let Mr. Tuminello make a motion that I literally never be allowed to ever speak again at Board Meeting OR Committee Meeting. I guess I should be grateful we aren’t medieval and they don’t cut my tongue out and exorcize my Demon(s). I wrote about this on this website in the article: Motion to Silence A Homeowner

But, they also want to silence Walker, who, as a former Defense Attorney, a former HOA Board President in North Carolina for over 10 years, and the person I served with on the CCR Committee that did a deep dive back in 2017 in preparation for potential revisions to the Documents. It could be argued that there’s few others that know as much about these HOA topics in the neighborhood, or the ins and outs of our documents.

In another instance of irony, Mr. Flanary and I find ourselves vociferously arguing the same side of a dispute with the Board about how best to go about Document Revision. Politics makes strange bedfellows, I’m told.

But wait, there’s more. Much more.

The meeting lumbered on for another 45 minutes with the Board barely able to get to the point where the Committee reluctantly choose leadership. After Pres. Jones asked for nominations, there was the longest pause and dead air of the meeting. Since you can see on Zoom everyone’s faces at once, the collective deer-in-the-headlights stiffness, almost as if each was secretly wishing they weren’t chosen. The silence made it abundantly clear that this Committee is run by its handlers, the Board, who put pressure on this Committed by attending the meeting, with now THREE of FIVE (a majority) of the Board taking the key positions of Co-Chair/Host’s (at the beginning of the meeting), but then voting to make Mike (I’m sorry I don’t have his last name) the Co-Chair of the Committee.

Yeah, at the beginning of the meeting, Pres. Jones is made THE Chair. But, then Treas. Hutchinson is the “Co-Host”. I love fantasy titles. I guess I’ll be the Wizard, or maybe Court Jester in this farce.

So, why not have someone else given the title “Co-Chair”. It’s not clear if this is a Trinity position with Pres. Jones and Co-Host Hutchinson. Well, that would Treasurer Director Co-Host Hutchinson, in full regalia. I suppose she’s in charge of tea and biscuits, like in Indian parliamentary committee meetings (true story, I’ve been there).

At some point, it’s quite possible that maybe I’ve drifted off to dreamland, and this is all just too crazy to be reality. i should pinch myself. Nope. I’m at the meeting, and the recording verifies.

After begging for someone to take the role of Secretary reminiscent of the “Bueller, Bueller” scene in Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, Ms. Heather Phillips was finally coaxed into the only title that is clear and not repetitive – Secretary.

At this point, the Meeting had taken approximately 4 Billion years, or an hour and 11 minutes of reality time. Not that reality seems to matter to this meeting. Now, we have a non-compliant participation system to be challenged post-meeting, and we’ve assigned two persons titles, with 50% of them being non-redundant. Progress.

Still, no homeowner participation is allowed.

Another 13 minutes were spent going round and round about how often they wished to meet, at what time and day of the week, how this might impact Spring Break, how 5-7pm is the “golden hour”, and a wide variety of opinions about whether this Document Revision Committee might actually get the job done in 3-6 months like Mr. Bielli sold everyone at the Annual Meeting, or whether it might just be 6 months or a year, or who knows – Maybe after another few billion years of these molasses flow meetings, they might just give up and decide not to revise the documents at all. After, of course, spending $10k. Well, that’s just the ante. They’ve also budgeted another $5k for their questions.

So, an hour and 24 minutes since this epic meeting began, where we made like 3 decisions without those pesky homeowners slowing it down even more, the homeowners finally get to speak.

In another case of irony, the 5 Board Members and 5 Committee Members (10 total) made up 2/3 of the entire number of persons at the meeting. There were only 4-5 homeowners (someone named “iphone” appeared and disappeared, who was never verified as a member of the HOA by anyone) attending.

And, of course, the only two to speak: Walker and me.

Walker made valid points. I concurred and expanded.

It was abundantly clear that the Document Revision Committee literally has no idea what they intend to do going in. Why?

Well, they could not articulate a single thing, like any of the prior 5 Tease Meetings, or frankly any meeting since 2019, when this whole boondoggle began. Because . . . .

They are waiting for the HOA General Counsel to tell them what to do. The new Co-Chair (the 3rd one, Mike B.), thought that Mr. Bielli still had to determine what “was legal” in our governing documents. Except, that was already done for a couple thousand dollars back in September/October of 2021.

Co-Chair #3 Mike B. said he read the letter that was written by VF-Law stating our documents, were, in fact “legal”. His term was “useable”.

But, that point, while made in the limited 2-minute comment period I was “allowed” at prior meetings, sailed over the heads of the 40-some homeowners that voted in a majority to approve this Document Revision project for $10,000. I reviewed this in detail in my article “Did That Really Just Happen?“

So, what this means is that Pres. Jones, who has made Document Revision the single agenda that has consumed this community’s focus and resources for years and probably a year or more into the future, still won’t tell us what her secret plan is, and she and her compatriots on the Board are complicit in this plan to hand-pick people who won’t ask questions (aka “stacking the deck”) or use critical thinking skills to figure out they are just puppets dressed up to make this process look open, transparent, fair, or legitimate.

And, I want to be clear: Based upon what I saw and heard, I DO believe all 5 of them signed up in good faith. But, whatever secret conversations are going on outside of meetings (the alluded to emails during the meeting), it’s clear they’ve also bought into the concept that they MUST take DIRECTION from Mr. Bielli vs. accepting his ADVICE as a vendor. It’s a common mistake for HOA Boards to treat the General Counsel as though he or she is in-house counsel. They aren’t. They are vendors, and we are free to follow their advice, OR NOT.

Why would we not take some or all of an attorney’s advice? Isn’t that dumb?

Well, not on one important topic: An attorney is also a SALESPERSON selling a SERVICE. And, a pricey one at that. If we adopt documents that are designed to keep us coming back to spend more money, then our Directors and Committee members have not performed their fiduciary duty to determine whether money is spent wisely or appropriately. We may be led into a future with a high expense without any tangible benefit for the community?

How do I know? Because I’ve been working with Legislators in Colorado for 3 years, and after reviewing scores of HOA horror stories (which continue to get reported to me, as people discover this website and realize they are seeing these patterns in their own HOAs), we’ve now got Legislators sponsoring a slew of legislation to address these issues and improprieties. Which should inform a Document Revision Committee, but they aren’t putting current legislation or legislative trends on their agenda. Because, me.

Pres. Jones and Treas. Hutchinson have spent 3 years telling everyone I am “crazy” (and they signed sworn statements admitting to knowing this was occurring or even participating), telling everyone I am a liar, not to communicate with me, to the point where we regularly observe people crossing the street to avoid us. Nice.

That’s what HOA’s that are caught in non-compliance do. They blame the whistle-blower and retaliate. They defame, they isolate, and they deliberately put psychological pressure by doing things like limiting the time to speak, cutting the microphone, or doing whatever necessary (including not telling Mr. Tuminello everyone has a right to speak when he made his ridiculous motion) to make my wife and I feel unwelcome in this neighborhood.

Well, I’d say this was unusual, but after testifying at two committee meetings in the Colorado Senate Committees, where I was limited to 3 minutes and 2 minutes of speaking, we heard from 4 residents from Piney Creek in South Denver who have had nearly identical experiences with retaliation. Including a Per Se Defamation case that resembles the one I brought against Poudre Overlook HOA (resulting in the Settlement Agreement). That one, however, is going to trial in April, and the person targeted was accused falsely of . . . pedophilia.

At least I’m only accused of being crazy and a liar. I should be grateful.

What is clear is that the Board of POHOA, which controls the SOLE Committee that actually has open public meetings (Pres. Jones shut down all other committees, including Landscaping, to prevent my participation in my opinion, and per the evidence I’ve seen from another homeowner) has not demonstrated the capability to run an efficient meeting. Listen for yourself and try not to lose your mind, or pass out from boredom/insanity and hit your head on the floor.

To suggest that the same person who gets praise for his concise presentations at the State level, because he has access to a detailed agenda or document in advance to he can prepare and make salient points with the option of submitting written comments to enhance them (and published transparently for all stakeholders to review in real time), somehow loses his mind when he returns to his home HOA, and just can’t stay within the dotted lines requiring a tight control to ensure that the two people who want to speak are rushed out of a meeting that has dragged on for 1.5 hours.

When Mr. Flanary and I were allowed to speak, 2 of the 5 Document Revision Committee Members turned off their cameras and left the meeting. We had to wait all this time, and 40% of the committee literally tuned us out.

Can POHOA recover from this sub-par start?

Honestly, yes. The Committee needs to shed it’s Board handlers and demonstrate it can run an actual efficient meeting without Director Pres. Co-Chair #1 Jones and Treas. Director Co-Host Hutchinson interfering – because these two are literally the most inefficient meeting leaders in the community.

I truly believe that these good-faith volunteers, if they take the time to figure out what is really required by statute and best practices, can turn this around for the better. And, if they don’t believe me, call up Altitude Law. Take a class with CAI or the State of Nevada (for free, no less). Get some education from any other persons that the two people on our Board that are pretending they know and understand the documents and law while refusing to take even rudimentary classes. It’s Blind Leading the Blind Amateur Hour once again until this changes.

And a HUGE and ONGOING WASTE OF OUR TIME. How ironic.

Last Point: When I asked Pres. Director Co-Chair #1 Jones where, exactly, she preferred me to have two-way communication with Mike B., or any other members of the board without these artificial constraints, she directed me to use my “blog”, this website. So, while I’ve submitted verbal comments at the meeting briefly, backed them up with written comments that are direct about the non-compliance and resolutions for the dispute on how to properly run meetings, the ability to tell this community in my own voice, at my own pace, with as much detail and related documents and links to fully document this for Legislators who are considering how to prevent this nonsense from occurring at other HOAs – like Piney Creek and scores of others who turn in formal complaints with DORA every month. Every month.

I’ve offered the POHOA Board the opportunity to submit any factual corrections or comments to this website, and I’ve agreed to host a rebuttal if they choose to make one. No response has been received to my written requests.

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Waste

Don’t want to be an actor pretending on the stage
Don’t want to be a writer with my thoughts out on the page
Don’t want to be a painter ’cause everyone comes to look
Don’t want to be anything where my life’s an open book

A dream it’s true
But I’d see it through
If I could be
Wasting my time with you

Don’t want to be a farmer working in the sun
Don’t want to be an outlaw always on the run
Don’t want to be a climber reaching for the top
Don’t want to be anything where I don’t know when to stop

A dream it’s true
But I’d see it through
If I could be
Wasting my time with you

So if I’m inside your head
Don’t believe what you might have read
You’ll see what I might have said
To hear it

Come waste your time with me
Come waste your time with me

So if I’m inside your head
Don’t believe what you might have read
You’ll see what I might have said
To hear it

Come waste your time with me
Come waste your time with me
Come waste your time with me
Come waste your time with me

Come waste your time with me

– Earnest Anastasio/Tom Marshall