HOT POTATO: PID Claims POHOA Responsible For Outlot Concrete Drainage

It was good to see some improvements at the PID in 2023. While no notice was sent, the Bylaws for Public Improvement District #30 (aka Poudre Overlook’s PID), were updated on 4/6/23 after I raised several points to the Larimer County Engineering Department that has oversight over our local Board back in December and January. One of the key points raised was about communications and scheduling of meetings, and I am happy to see that the PID coordinated with the Poudre Overlook HOA Board to send out email communications in advance of the meeting, along with an agenda.

Director Davis made an excellent suggestion: That the link to the Larimer County website where all the PID info is be added to the POHOA Website. For those that don’t have it, it is at this URL: https://www.larimer.gov/engineering/improvement-districts/more-info

The agenda was fairly straightforward, and addressed the need to do repairs on our sidewalks and asphalt streets (sealing cracks).

The notice was sent out 6 days in advance of the meeting, which is an improvement. I’d still like to see these go out maybe 7-10 days in advance, but this is much better than the 3-day notice we got for last summer’s meeting. And, it was scheduled at 7pm on a Thursday, which both complied with the Larimer County Code (last year’s was at 5pm on a Friday, which is not when meetings are to be held). And, the meeting minutes were actually posted on the Larimer County website in advance of the meeting, which was helpful.

In regards to repairs, the email also included a map of the neighborhood, with clear markings for where the repairs were needed. If anyone knew of something missed, the meeting was then available for their input.

There was one issue, however, that I thought that they’d address, which was the condition of the drainage tile in the outlots. Going back as far as 2021, I had been trying as a homeowner to get the Board to recognize that we were failing to remove a build-up of sediment and debris. This was mostly due to the fact that we changed contractors for the Outlot Mowing.

Instead of using a farm tractor with a trailing series of consecutive mowers that fully mulched the grasses and weeds, we chose a contractor who had a Bobcat (skid steer) that had rigid mowers in front – and not the same configuration that would fully mulch the plant material. As a result, we have been left with piles of long-strand thick grasses that don’t break down for months after mowing. These accumulate in the drainage tile, which then prevents the free flow of water when it rains, and subsequently leads to a quicker building of sediment. That sediment, which is kind of sticky/muddy because of our clay soils, then further exacerbates the flow of water.

The failure to remove sediment then causes the backed up water flow to go over the edges and saturate the ground underneath. This then causes the weight of the concrete drainage tile to sink into the ground. As the tile sinks lower, the grade causing the flow is interrupted, and we end up with small standing water pools. And, now at the East end of POHOA, the water no longer flows through a culvert into the intended dry pond because no maintenance work appears to have been done for up to 5 years.

When I joined the board in May of 2022, I attempted to raise the issue with Directors Lora Ballweber and Clay Jones, but was told that the President alone determines the agenda. Director Jones, who became Treasurer, then declared that he alone was the sole contact with contractors, and therefore any subject matter about the outlots was his purview and his alone. The Landscaping Committee, had not functioned for 3 years, and with this arrangement, all questions at meetings or by email were ignored or dismissed by the two Directors who controlled the POHOA Board inflexibly.

I tried over the Winter to raise the issue of how failure of proper maintenance of the concrete would shorten its lifespan, and ultimately increase costs on all of us. Water is the enemy of concrete, whether it is frozen or liquid. And, when you fail to remove ice, or when you fail to remove sediment that is allowed to bond with the concrete, it all leads to cracking. Cracking accelerates with seasonal freezing and thawing, and eventually it has to be replaced.

So, I was happy to hear Director Keith Knight advocating at the Thursday July 20, 2023 PID Board Meeting that we should take a proactive approach to concrete and asphalt maintenance. I’ve always appreciated his approach to similar matters, including his early recognition of a need to build a reserve for our cedar fences while serving on the POHOA Board. That led to a successful 3-year Special Assessment . . . which unfortunately fell short of raising enough money to pay for complete replacement of the fencing when costs increased more than forecast.

Earlier in the day, however, I noted that we had gotten some significant rains, and I went out to take pictures of this problem at the East End. I found that the water was flowing down the South edge of the HOA, but when it turned the corner at the East End, the water was standing and no longer flowing.

Following the drainage to the culvert, it was obvious that there was significant debris from the mowing (which was done a full month+ before) and sediment. Once you got close to the grate over the culvert, you literally could no longer see the concrete. It was completely covered with sediment and debris.

At the mouth of the culvert, there was even a cardboard box for good measure.

What I had not done for a while is followed that culvert to the exit tube to see how much water was getting through. When I got there, I was kind of shocked. The answer was that the flow had been completely stopped. The tube was dry.

So, walking back towards my house, it happens to pass by Mr. Hammond’s home, where the PID Meeting was scheduled. Actually, in the cul-de-sac in front of his home. The use of outdoor meetings that the POHOA Board held in the Summer of 2022 (which are now all held at the Senior Center) have ceased. But, for some reason, the PID still thinks outdoor meetings when thunderstorms frequently pop up on the Front Range are a good idea. It was raining when I passed his house, and apparently he saw me and said hi.

I took the opportunity to then raise the issue I had observed, and Mr. Hammond walked over to see the backed up water. He then declared that this was not a PID issue, but rather an issue for the POHOA Board. I was kind of taken aback by the response, as I was fairly certain this was not the case at all. I had just thought it was a good idea, since we were already doing concrete work on sidewalks, to schedule additional concrete work on the drainage tile at the same time to potentially save some money.

Recognizing that the POHOA Board had rejected me bringing up the topic in 2022, I felt like this had suddenly become a proverbial “hot potato”. While it was perhaps true that POHOA was responsible and not the PID, it was clear neither were doing anything about it – for several years. And, the problem was accelerating and had reached a point where the water no longer flowed to its correct destination.

I went home and sent an email, copying the Larimer County Engineering Department, who most likely knew for certain whether this was the domain of PID or not. But, I also wanted to give all POHOA Directors a heads up a few hours in advance of the PID meeting, so that perhaps they could attend and this could be settled so that one of the two boards would address the actual problem.

I was also hoping Mr. Hammond would read the email in advance, and perhaps realize that the PID, had numerous instance in the past demonstrating that it was the party responsible for the maintenance, repair, and even replacement of the concrete drainage tile throughout the POHOA Community. His experience as a POHOA Board member should have included knowing this as well – as POHOA has literally no budget or reserve funds saved for such repairs. And, Mr. Hammond was both a prior President and Treasurer.

I got no response in advance of the meeting. As I walked over to the meeting in the rain, I prepared copies of the 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2018 PID Meeting Minutes which included such quotes as:

“A decision was made to do minor maintenance on storm drainage areas. This will include keeping outlet drains clear of debris and removing sediment from concrete drainage structures next to the road. This work will be done by the Board members.”

Source: https://apps.larimer.org/engineering/impdist/Poudre%20Overlook/MIN_07_16_18.pdf

If the intention of PID was to only perform maintenance “next to the road”, and not throughout the entire drainage tile network, then there appears to be an issue of communication between the PID and the POHOA Board.

In the 2014 Meeting Minutes, no such caveat is mentioned:

1. Old Business, d. Activities, #6:

“Performed minor maintenance to drainage structures to maintain water flow (sludge/debris removal).

Minutes from 2013 mentions “Responsibility for maintaining stormwater outlet structures”, but has no details.

Minutes from 2015 discusses the topic of PID considering “petitions” to create “no mowing” areas in the drainage, including putting trees or shrubs in these spaces. If PID has no power or authority over the “outlots”, it’s odd this discussion would occur at all. Yet, there’s a mention of “uncertainty as to which controls” – PID vs. POHOA. Again, the minutes lack detail to decipher. What is clear is that they proposed to spend $16,000 to do concrete work on a small section – indicating how expensive a failure to maintain the drainage really can be, and why it may be important for the POHOA Board to prioritize this issue.

So, while the minutes make clear that the PID, in the past, considered the drainage tile concrete to be their purview and responsibility, the assumption that there’s nothing explicit in the PID or POHOA documents (and therefore a discretionary choice) would then leave the responsibility open to individual director’s discretion. It made me wonder whether the Larimer County Engineering Department would leave Public Improvement Districts in such dilemmas without written instructions about exactly what they are supposed to manage in their duties.

When New Business was opened at the PID Meeting on 7/20/23, I spoke up about this issue, and Mr. Hammond reiterated he didn’t think it was the PID’s responsibility. I brought copies of the prior PID Meeting Minutes, and handed them to the other two PID Directors. Fortunately, Director Knight spoke up and said he thought it was actually possible that PID was responsible.

Even after Director Knight spoke in favor of addressing this by the PID and coordinating with the Larimer County Engineers, Director Hammond still spoke up saying he didn’t think the PID was responsible.

POHOA Director Flanary arrived at the meeting late, and there wasn’t an empty chair in initially. He spoke his only words when he offered to sit on Mr. Hammond’s lap. Cheeky humor, but when the topic of whether POHOA was responsible for the drainage tile, he sat there silently and did not contribute.

Instead, the issue was tabled for further research and engagement between the two Boards.

Hopefully, one of the things they will review is the foundational documents of the PID, where the mandate is pretty straightforward. Exhibit B: Description of District Activities is posted on the Larimer County Website.

I don’t understand how this plain language could be interpreted differently by Mr. Hammond. I suspect, as had been our experience on the POHOA Board, Mr. Hammond hasn’t actually taken the time to read the basic documents of the organization he is representing. It’s a repeating pattern.

So, instead, we will have to wait for this hot potato to land where it should – at PID.

In the meantime, the fact that POHOA is contributing to the problem by both delaying initial mowing of the outlots (to mid/late June vs end of May), and choosing a contractor who leaves behind long-strand grass debris, may result in the necessity for POHOA to contribute to the funding of repairs. This supports the need to stop the practice of putting all decisions in the hands of the Treasurer, Director Clay Jones, and instead have a Landscaping Committee that can consider how poor maintenance can lead to extra expenses.